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Proposed changes to categories interpretation and use of features

Right off the bat, I think I'm going to add a new category for estencelÚ. Presently, estencelÚ is treated as a variation of seme of roundels, but it shouldn't be lumped in to that. Using the present pattern (flaws and all), it would be "Field treatment, estencely" or something like that.

OK. I have a "Field treatment, estencely" but I think I also want to add a new category "sparks", since it is valid (I think) to strew sparks on a charge...

AmC?: It'd be nice to have an entry for "calygreyhound" added to the OandA? Index; I haven't a clue where they're located.

AmC?: It'd also be nice to have an entry for "pantheon" in the OandA? Index.

DdL?: I have the impression that people look at the Ordinary categories as somewhat authoritative: I think they assume that the categories are correct heraldically. But estencely is not a field treatment in SCA terms.

Herveus: This is an auspicious time to consider that change, since I'm gearing up to produce the next major edition of the O&A.

It just occurred to me that most of the so-called field treatments are really strewn charges on the field. I could rename them "Seme on field, x" for useful values of "x".

Field treatment, seme (ermined) should become simply "field treatment, ermined", as it does the "different tincture" thing. It's not seme. Everything else that is currently labeled "field treatment, seme (x)" should become "seme on field, x" (or something like that).


Chape and "per chevron" are indexed separately by me, but the category rewriting for the exported database puts them both under "per chevron" with a "t1" or "t2" feature to distinguish them.

The problem that has arisen is that the tincture order is different for the two fields.

Per chevron argent and gules... is the same rought picture as Gules chape argent...

The field division category lists the tinctures in the order presented because the order is significant. Both the "field division, per chevron" and "field division, chape" categories expect a "tincture" and a "tincture2" feature. Since these are two-part divisions, the order of the tinctures is significant. "tincture2" features read "~and x" for a useful range of values of x as a tincture.

Thus, I have been indexing "Gules chape argent..." as "field division, chape, gules, ~and argent". "Per chevron argent and gules..." gets "field division, per chevron, argent, ~and gules". The problem is that when both are merged under "PC:tincture:tincture2", the two come out with different first and second tinctures. This leads to erroneous placements in the ordinary.

What I'd *like* to do is to continue indexing the tinctures in their "natural" order as they appear in the blazon. That means that the "tempmap" script will have to be much smarter and rewrite the features to put them in the right order for the export version. The alternative is for me to remember to list the tinctures top to bottom regardless of how they appear in the blazon.

I may just suck it up and go with the second plan...

...which is what I have done as that was the simplest plan.


AmC?: In the OandA? index, there's this entry:

Fruit - Cherry - see Fruit - Other

This should probably be changed to "Fruit - Cherry - see Fruit - Apple" per this precedent from 10/2005:

CÚcille Cerise of Cherybeare. Device. Or, a cherry double slipped, each slip leaved proper.

This is returned for conflict with the badge of Da'ud ibn Auda, (Fieldless) An apple gules slipped and leaved proper. There is one CD for fieldlessness, but no more.

The cherry does appear to be a period heraldic charge: Parker, p.104, cites the example of Cheriton, Bishop of Bangor 1436-37: ... on a chevron between three martlets ... as many cherries stalked; in chief three annulets... (The ellipses are because we don't know tinctures; presumably this is a stone carving or other tinctureless rendition.) The only reason we know they're cherries is from the cant.

On the other hand, Fox-Davies (Complete Guide to Heraldry, p.209) says that "Papworth mentions in the arms of Messarney an instance of cherries. Elsewhere, however, the charges on the shield of this family are termed apples." This is confirmed by looking in Papworth, p.428, at the arms of Messarney: Or, a chevron per pale gules and vert between three (apples) cherries of the second slipped as the third. The two different blazons, apples vs. cherries, are found in different editions of Glover's Ordinary. It would appear that even period heralds had difficulty telling the two charges apart. As the charges were not distinct in period, we grant no difference between an apple and a cherry, and this conflicts with Da'ud's badge as cited above.


Since there is a CD between a keythong and a griffin, I think it'd be useful to list keythongs and male griffins in their own category, separate from regular griffins.


Can we get an entry for "labyrinth" added to the index?


Where are llamas located? They're not in the index.

Ahah! Doing a blazon pattern search for 'llama' I see the note:

  1. Delis Alms

    * The following badge associated with this name was registered in October of 2009 (via Calontir):
      (Fieldless) A winged llama statant contourny argent.
      for Arian verch Gwydion
      # add reference llama see camel

Yes, please do add such a reference.


There are no entries for "spinning wheel" or "eel" in the index. It would be nice to have them.

Heh, I just logged in here to ask for an entry for "eel", to see immediately above I've already done so.

Has anything been done with suggestions on this page? Some of them have been here for a few years now.


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Last edited October 4, 2012 9:10 am by Aryanhwy (diff)
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